tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5211670216140060946.post3914977595103152168..comments2024-03-17T18:37:36.377-07:00Comments on Geotripper: Standing on a Rock: Why the California Legislature Needs to Hear From Educators, Students and ScientistsGarry Hayeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00531226195147986457noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5211670216140060946.post-25499785408411289542011-07-11T16:36:09.315-07:002011-07-11T16:36:09.315-07:00Who is TC McNamara anyway?
Is, The John McNamara F...Who is TC McNamara anyway?<br />Is, The John McNamara Foundation a legitimate running non-profit from CA ??? Do your research....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5211670216140060946.post-31730188253088829792010-09-02T13:22:30.247-07:002010-09-02T13:22:30.247-07:00Thanks for commenting, Anonymous. Please read my o...Thanks for commenting, Anonymous. Please read my older post, and then ask if I understand. I lost my grandfather to lung cancer, possibly asbestos-related, and I missed many chances to hear his stories and understand his life: http://geotripper.blogspot.com/2010/07/it-is-time-for-rational-and-civil.htmlGarry Hayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00531226195147986457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5211670216140060946.post-76386930651945151242010-09-02T10:47:24.535-07:002010-09-02T10:47:24.535-07:00Gary -
I am one of the five daughters of John. I...Gary -<br /><br />I am one of the five daughters of John. I understand your reasons for wanting to keep the state rock of CA. However, when a loved one passes for a reason that could have been prevented you would go to the source and make changes worldwide. I welcome you to come explain to my 5 year old why his Papa John isn't here anymore and why he doesn't have any memories of his Papa John as he was to young to remember. Like TC said, I do agree with her and wish that I could have one last moment to hear that my dad loved me. So please understand where we are coming from!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5211670216140060946.post-13935981490958380722010-08-13T06:22:52.615-07:002010-08-13T06:22:52.615-07:00Anonymous, thanks for your input. I used the termi...Anonymous, thanks for your input. I used the terminology that I did as a response to the wording of the SB624 that seems to insinuate that serpentine is "the" cause of mesothelioma in California. I understand the distinction between "a" and "the", since many factors are involved in causation of cancer. There are some journal articles that report higher disease rates near serpentine exposures, but they do not distinguish between the types of asbestos that are present. Even lawyer sites acknowledge that different forms of asbestos have different potency, though all can cause disease.<br /><br />In the same way, we have criticized the improper use of "rate" in Section c of the proposed legislation.<br /><br />You are correct that I am not an expert on disease, but geologists AND epidemiologists and many others SHOULD have had input into this legislation but were not given the opportunity. No one even thought to ask, and only one witness was heard by the Assembly committee that first voted on the bill. That has been one of my points throughout this debate. They should not be passing poorly worded laws with unknown consequences in the crush of the final weeks of the session along with 300 other bills. Not without help from some experts in the disciplines involved.<br /><br />Thanks again for your note and clarification.Garry Hayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00531226195147986457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5211670216140060946.post-70450939573362965232010-08-13T05:48:59.757-07:002010-08-13T05:48:59.757-07:00I agree with you that scientists should be include...I agree with you that scientists should be included in the policy process. I disagree with the idea that geologists know better than public health scientists (e.g. epidemiologists) whether the rock poses a threat to public health. The International Agency for Research on Cancer has concluded that all forms of asbestos, including chrysotile, are carcinogenic. The more open question is whether exposure to serpentine-based soils is a cause for mesothelioma.<br /><br />I also want to clarify that the way you use "cause", as in, "the cause", is not how most public health specialists use that word. In public health, using the conceptualization by Rothman (other theorists use other definitions), a "cause" is a necessary part of the conditions(a "causal complement") necessary and sufficient for some outcome. An outcome can have multiple causal complements that could have given rise to it, and these causal complements can be made of different things. So stating that "The current state rock, serpentine, is not the cause of mesothelioma in the state of California or anywhere else" is not coherent from my perspective, because it could be A cause or part of A causal complex. Complex diseases such as cancer often have many different possible causal complexes, and it is an open question (with some evidence suggesting a possible relationship) whether serpentine-based soils are related to mesothelioma.<br /><br />I do think geologists should weigh in on this issue because you have the most knowledge about the physics and processes that gave rise to the rock. And I think ecologists and conservation biologists should weigh in too. But I do not think that geologists, epidemiologists, or ecologists should be speaking too loudly on subject matters outside their expertise.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5211670216140060946.post-31165095979487934932010-08-11T14:11:35.426-07:002010-08-11T14:11:35.426-07:00T.C....your anger is misplaced. Hate the people th...T.C....your anger is misplaced. Hate the people that placed your husband in harms way. For profit or out of ignorance, the negligent people should pay for your loss and not a rock.gerry menezesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5211670216140060946.post-3985176730375709142010-08-11T12:58:51.068-07:002010-08-11T12:58:51.068-07:00Guilty as charged! Lots of flammable language on t...Guilty as charged! Lots of flammable language on the issue over the weeks, though.Garry Hayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00531226195147986457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5211670216140060946.post-87581354010344985862010-08-11T12:27:11.756-07:002010-08-11T12:27:11.756-07:00On a side topic: I don't think you mean to sa...On a side topic: I don't think you mean to say that asbestos is inflammable. "Inflammable" means "capable of being inflamed". "Inflammable" is the same as "flammable" -- how strange is the English language! I think you mean "flameproof" or "incombustible".Phil Davidsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03344350136818674649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5211670216140060946.post-14922509580098704832010-08-11T09:30:25.345-07:002010-08-11T09:30:25.345-07:00Garry and everybody else:
To find out who your sta...Garry and everybody else:<br />To find out who your state assembly person and state senator are, go to: http://www.vote-smart.org/<br />On the left is a "Find your representative" box. Just enter your zip code (include all 9 digits for more accuracy) and you'll get a page listing all the federal and state elected offices, and who's currently filling those offices. Since it's an election year, you'll also get a list of those running for office.<br />I urge you to bookmark this web site, since it has tons of useful information!Randy A.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5211670216140060946.post-62257750342241395162010-08-11T07:20:59.087-07:002010-08-11T07:20:59.087-07:00#1: This effort to remove the designation of serpe...#1: This effort to remove the designation of serpentine as the state rock will garner attention this one time, and this time only. People will see an article in some corner of the paper, and never again will they hear about mesothelioma and asbestos. But as the state rock, many thousands of school students for decades to come will do reports about the state symbols, and no doubt every one of them will come across the fact that serpentine sometimes contains one of the forms of asbestos, and that asbestos is implicated in diseases. Think of the value of this fact alone in educating the public. Even if the original reason for the designation for the state rock was to promote mining, then think of the irony of using their own PR against them.<br /><br />#2, and to me the most important reason to reconsider your position: Serpentine is one of the most revealing and fascinating minerals (and rock) that that we can teach about in California. Serpentine is a unique mineral that sometimes has an asbestiform crystal habit, but most often has a beautiful jade-like appearance. The importance of the rock lies in its history: The fact that the source of the rock is deep in the earth’s mantle, beneath the 15-25 mile thick crust, is a revelation and acknowledgement of the incredible forces that have shaped the state. Imagine what it takes to bring masses of rock from such great depths! California has the incredible scenery that it does because of forces of movements along plate boundaries, whether the lateral movements along the San Andreas fault, or the vertical churning that occurs along convergent boundaries, where ocean crust is driven underneath the edge of the continent. Serpentine is found along these boundaries, and it is exposed here better than anywhere else in the United States. <br /><br />Economically, serpentine is the source for a number of rare minerals: chromite, magnesium, nickel, and mercury. All were mined during the world wars to make armor, flares and triggers, and no doubt helped in the war effort. All of these minerals, especially mercury, can be deadly in their own way, but it is our use and abuse that leads to disease, not their existence in a particular rock.<br /><br />I was shocked to learn of this effort to remove what I feel is an appropriate symbol of our state, because it should be a tool in your arsenal to educate people about the dangers of asbestos. You should be using this symbol as a cudgel against the companies that abused their workers.<br /><br />I know this effort is too far gone to be changing or reconsidering your position, but I hope you could understand the position of literally every earth science teacher who has contacted me about this issue (I was the president of the Far Western Section of the National Association of Geoscience Teachers). You are taking away a valuable teaching tool, one that your organization should be using, not throwing away.<br /><br />In any case, thank you for your time and attention. We are in agreement about what should be done about asbestos, and the companies that abused our trust. But I could not more strongly disagree with your effort in regards to serpentine and the state of California."<br /><br />TC, I stand by my words of condolence, and offer that we can work together to teach about the dangers of asbestos. We both seek to educate the public about cancer, we just disagree about the best method.<br /><br />Again, thank you for responding.Garry Hayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00531226195147986457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5211670216140060946.post-39098840417306182522010-08-11T07:20:02.026-07:002010-08-11T07:20:02.026-07:00Hello TC. Thank you for responding. If my numbers ...Hello TC. Thank you for responding. If my numbers are wrong, I will correct them, but I drew from government statistics because in many cases theirs are the most objective. Please read my posts on serpentine carefully. I have never attacked the families of cancer victims, and instead, I have the deepest sympathy for them, and for you. I have argued that using the state rock is a teaching tool that can and should be used to further your organizational aims. I encourage you to read a letter I addressed to you on the ADAO website that was posted before any of the press releases, any of the news stories, and any of the media storm, on July 7 (http://www.asbestosdiseaseawareness.org/message-from-tc-mcnamara-in-support-of-sb-624/): <br /><br />"I want to convey my condolences on the loss of your husband, and to note that I can only understand your loss to the extent that a husband is different from a grandfather. My grandfather died an ugly and painful death from lung cancer, and although he smoked, I strongly suspect asbestos could have had a role in his death, as he was a shipworker in WWI, and he worked in a tile factory for much of his later life.<br /><br />I also want to say that I agree with the aims of your organization: any company that knew of the dangers of asbestos and failed to protect their employees should be made to pay, and pay dearly. I could never support or condone their actions.<br /><br />I deeply hope you understand me, then, when I ask you to reconsider this issue of SB 624. I teach geology at a community college in California, and I feel a need to point out some problems with this effort to remove serpentine as the state rock of California. I say this because having serpentine as a state rock could and should be one of the most useful educational tools you could have about asbestos and mesothelioma. I have two points I want to try and convey, and I thank you for reading this far! (the post has exceeded the word limit and is continued in comment #3)Garry Hayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00531226195147986457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5211670216140060946.post-66082045270651723952010-08-11T06:40:25.246-07:002010-08-11T06:40:25.246-07:00What saddens me is you have done exactly what you ...What saddens me is you have done exactly what you accuse others of<br />doing, giving false facts, I am a native of California, I was married at 16 for over 30 years when my husband a US Navy Vet was taken from me, his five California born and raised daughters his grandsons all from California, we are not proud of this rock my children had never been taught about this rock in our public or private schools, I am not an attorney nor will I benefiit finacially from the rock or its removal. My families loss like so many others is far beyond your scope. We woke up on day to a nightmare that robbed us of our normal plain lives and can affect anyone on of you at any time with no warning. Lets fight to honor a rock that can be masked as another serial killer. Im glad you and your families have time to mock us,<br />I would give you a mountain of serpintine for 30 seconds again with my husband Im sure his children will agree. Maybe when they finish middle and high schools you can address this with them.<br /><br />Thanks for the continued effort to bash us, and our US war hero like so many others.<br /><br />TC McNamara<br />P.S. If you have a direct line to CDC can you ask them to quit mislabeling deaths to lung cancer and address the actual meso deaths thanks we need your figures to be correct.TC McNamarahttp://The John McNamara Foundation.orgnoreply@blogger.com